RE: Big Yes for Formulaic Writing

[Robin R Wright <rrwright@utkux.utcc.utk.edu>]

Katie,

I hope I didn't offend.  I am not as young as I wish I were (my children
are grown, if that gives you any indication). I was really speaking
metaphorically.  The instructor I'm dealing with is my age, but very
resistant to change.  

Thanks for your encouragement.  This list has saved my sanity many times.  
It's wonderful to communicate with professionals who care about their
students and know what we in the center go through. 

I agree that we should question.  However, I work with a specific sector
of the student body--athletes.  They are under extreme pressure to do well
in academics and the grade is everything to them.  It has to be.  That
probably explains my frustration.  They have such wonderful stories to
tell and some instructors don't want to hear those stories.  

Robin
On Tue, 2 Jun 1998, Katherine Fischer wrote:

> As much as fools rush in (I have personal firsthand experience in the
> fool's role), I am learning more and more that using terms like
> "alternative writing" or being "against the traditional form" gets me into
> hot water.  I'm trying approaches that hopefully put folks less on the
> defensive.  Since I also teach creative writing, I find we risk having
> such suggestions labeled "creative" or worse yet, "that fluff writing."
> 
> Hey, Robin, hang in there.  I think steam can work as well as water btw.
> Oh yeah, and some of *us* are in our old age, too;-)
> 
> Katie
> 
> 
> On Tue, 2 Jun 1998, Robin R Wright wrote:
> 
> > Katie,
> > 
> > Thanks.  I couldn't agree more.  I'm having a difficult time with an
> > instructor who teaches modes and is RIGID in the extreme.  I know I was
> > blowing off steam last night, but I needed to.  I, too, have sent pieces
> > to profs in hopes of mellowing them in their old age.  They usually can't
> > connect the professional piece to student writing.  They have too long
> > remained separate in their minds.  I agree that the centers can make a
> > difference.  Thanks for reminding me that those boulders CAN be worn down.
> > 
> > Robin
> > On Tue, 2 Jun 1998, Katherine Fischer wrote:
> > 
> > > Robin,
> > > Yes, tough situations.  Audience.  The old caveat was that we always,
> > > always, always write TO the audience.  "To" the audience often presumed we
> > > try to win her/him over, we try to "fit" into what the audience (in this
> > > case the teacher) expects/demands, etc.  I've begun to question that,
> > > however, particularly in light of the goals which exceed any given
> > > assignemnt, i.e. thinking and learning.  I probably know how to guide a
> > > lot of our clients into getting an "A" on many of the writing assignments
> > > given on campus, but that's not really my purpose in the writing lab.
> > > 
> > > So it's a conundrum.  Believing above all that the writer owns the paper
> > > and her decisions about what to do, the scenarios you describe below would
> > > find me asking the writer, "well, ya know that Professor Stuffit really
> > > likes tidy thesis statements at the opening of papers done for him.  You
> > > don't have one of those here and with good reason.  Your writing seems to
> > > be instead doing this and that and that.  So whatdya think?  What do you
> > > as writer want to do in this situation?"  Yes, most times, particularly
> > > tradition-aged writers will shift over to the traditional format Prof.
> > > Stuffit dictates, but that's ok.  The writer has already experience real
> > > affirmation and recognition for her original way of writing and organizing
> > > the paper.
> > > 
> > > I'm a real believer in water wearing down the boulder.  Persistence.  I
> > > believe writing centers/labs can make a difference in cracking open the
> > > academy.  I've sent faculty examples of really fine writing in their field
> > > that does not follow traditional academic writing with notes attached like
> > > "Professor Stuffit, I came across this in my reading.  What do you think
> > > of the writing?"  Especialy if the writer is noted in the field, Prof.
> > > Stuffit will probably tell me it's great writing.  Then we have an opening
> > > in which to discuss alternatives to the Baconian essay.  I've also sought
> > > out other faculty on campus who are of a like mind and engaged them in
> > > wider discussions with faculty or invited them to co-present with me under
> > > the guise of topics like WAC or writing-to-learn techniques.
> > > 
> > > Overall, one of the hugest mysteries in the world to be is why English
> > > Department which often prize art, the aesthetic, and exploration have so
> > > focused on models established to explain the world scientifically, models
> > > designed to answer rather than to question.  Amazing!
> > > 
> > > Katie
> > > 
> > > On Mon, 1 Jun 1998, Robin R Wright wrote:
> > > 
> > > > Katie,
> > > > Yes, we are student advocates.  I spend much of my time on the phone to
> > > > instructors discussing form vs content and creativity (among other
> > > > things). If Anne were in my
> > > > class I'd give her an A in a heartbeat.  However, I often deal with
> > > > instructors from my own department who insist on a particular formula and
> > > > would fail Anne's essay with the remark "good idea but doesn't fit the
> > > > assignment" penciled in the margin. Isn't it then my duty to let her know
> > > > that and help her fit her ideas into her teacher's formula?
> > > > 
> > > > Don't get me wrong, I object to an instructor's insistence on his/her form
> > > > over Anne's creativity and expression so violently that it makes me ill
> > > > when I have to deal with similar non-hypothetical cases.  On the other
> > > > hand, I don't hire or fire the English teachers and, let's face it, in a
> > > > department as large as ours, several of them will be "set in their
> > > > (out-dated) ways."  I find it depressing, but it's reality.  Many
> > > > instructors insist on their way or no way.  Quality be damned.
> > > > It amazes me that they can stand to read those hellaciously boring themes.
> > > > But, if Anne's instructor was one of those, then I'd have to tell her
> > > > that, although *I* value her ingenuity greatly and she should save this
> > > > draft, she should reformat to follow her instructor's requirements.
> > > > 
> > > > Believe me, I have pleaded with instructors to be flexible many times but,
> > > > frankly, many aren't.  I call many of them just to ask if the form must be
> > > > followed or may a student who obviously is beyond that write in a more
> > > > sophistocated style. Many times, it doesn't help.  I'm sure we're not the
> > > > only college with stubborn instructors who have been there since dirt.
> > > >  
> > > > What I guess I'm saying is that we have to not only get to know the
> > > > clients, but the instructors' peculiarities as well, if we're to help the
> > > > student achieve what the student wants--an A. That leaves us in the
> > > > awkward position of HAVING to teach form whether we agree with the method
> > > > or not. (Not to mention that finding out about all the instructors can be
> > > > quite an undertaking in itself!)
> > > > 
> > > > This subject is one I struggle with daily.  I am passionate about the
> > > > teaching of writing and it's painful for me to have to conform to styles
> > > > that I find extremely limiting. (The formulaic persuasive model is
> > > > extremely popular at the moment--not 5P but 7P, with the thesis at the
> > > > end).
> > > > 
> > > > In addition to composition courses, I also teach creative writing courses
> > > > at UT.  I think that's why this is especially painful for me when I have
> > > > to deal with it.  Does anyone have a word or two of advise?
> > > > 
> > > > Robin
> > > > 
> > > > On Mon, 1 Jun 1998, Katherine Fischer wrote:
> > > > 
> > > > > Robin,
> > > > > I don't think I'd suggest to a client that s/he purposely take the writing
> > > > > and go against the teacher's dictate.  But let's say the client (let's
> > > > > call her Anne), let's say Anne comes in with a good strong piece of
> > > > > writing.  She's been told to write a research essay for her sociology
> > > > > class about absentee fathers.  Her essay is a dialog between a persona and
> > > > > her own father, thinly disguised masks for the writer and her father.
> > > > > Let's say she has documented research within the text of the dialog.
> > > > > Let's say she's persuasive even if she's not using Aristotlean logic.
> > > > > Let's say she brings in all kinds of arguments and raises all kinds of
> > > > > questions and never quite concludes becasue the complexity of the issue
> > > > > is, after all, inconcludable.  Would I, as tutor or trainer of tutors,
> > > > > tell Anne she'd better drum up a thesis and whip this into essay form?  No
> > > > > way.  I'd be pleased to suggest she visit with her teacher about the
> > > > > essay, pleased to make a call on her behalf and the essay's way of
> > > > > launching acceptable, albeit alternative, research discourse.  We are
> > > > > student advocates, after all, si?
> > > > > 
> > > > > And we can give workshops across the curriculum.
> > > > > 
> > > > > We can mingle.
> > > > > 
> > > > > We can question.
> > > > > 
> > > > > Katie
> > > > > 
> > > > > On Mon, 1 Jun 1998, Robin R Wright wrote:
> > > > > 
> > > > > > Everyone,
> > > > > > This discussion is both fascinating and disturbing.  Personally, I abhor
> > > > > > the 5P theme and spend a great deal of time when teaching 101 and 102
> > > > > > trying to dissuade my students from using it.  However, if they must they
> > > > > > must, and if the content is adequate, I don't fault them for it (although
> > > > > > I do cry into my pillow at night).
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > I agree with most of you who argue against teaching the 5P.  However,
> > > > > > since we work in writing centers, our job is to teach the student whatever
> > > > > > his/her instructor wants, isn't it?  As much as we'd love for students to
> > > > > > write for the love of expression, what they really want is a good grade,
> > > > > > right?
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > The most difficult part of running the writing center, for me, is dealing
> > > > > > with assignments from the 150 teachers in our English dept. who all
> > > > > > require different things.  We in the center have to learn which
> > > > > > instructors teach the 5P, persuasive format, modes (ugh!!), etc and help
> > > > > > the student accordingly. I often feel I'm selling out my personal
> > > > > > pedagogical ideals in the process, but I need to give the student what the
> > > > > > student needs.  They depend on that.  Can we afford to proffer our own
> > > > > > teaching methods in the center at the expense of the student?  Many
> > > > > > instructors make me cringe and pull my hair out by the roots, but my job
> > > > > > is to keep the student from seeing the pain I feel when I read over their
> > > > > > writing assignment.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > OK, so I'm venting.  I just wanted to see what everyone REALLY DOES in the
> > > > > > center when the various formulas are presented as the only way to
> > > > > > write-not by students but by their instructors.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > Your colleague and self-confessed sell-out,
> > > > > > Robin Wright
> > > > > > Writing Center
> > > > > > Athletics Department  
> > > > > > University of Tennessee
> > > > > > 
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