Re: Writing in the workplace (long)

[snewmann@sfasu.edu]

Jon, maybe things have changed markedly since I last taught at the
community college in Maryland part-time.  I taught an evening course there
in comp.  It met once per week for 3 hours (7-10 p.m.).  I had many
'older' students in those sections.  They were full-time employed and
taking only my writing course.  I once asked them (I was curious why they
would work so hard--they always came to class prepared having done
everything I'd asked them to do).  Several of them told me they'd been
told that they'd reached a "dead end" in their careers.  They would
receive no further promotions or raises because their writing was too
weak.  They wanted to learn to write for their jobs.  At least three of
those students told me they'd actually rec'd the raise or promotion by the
end of the term.  These were motivated students--they knew the value of
knowing how to write.  They used those skills every day in their jobs.
And how they wrote mattered in ways they'd never dreamed they would.  I
don't buy the claim that people in the "real" or "work" world don't write.
I do believe that most people both in and out of the academy consider good
writing to be writing that is relatively free of grammatical error.  But I
don't think that perception should cause us to alter the way we teach
writing.  Good Grammar is certainly a requisite of "good writing" but it
is by no means the definition of "good writing".  I've found over the
years that when a writer understands what s/he is trying to say s/he
usually says it with better grammar than when s/he does not clearly
understand what s/he is writing about.  Much of the grammar problem gets
corrected as the writer comes to better understand the material and what
s/he wants to say about it.

				stephen


On Mon, 4 May 1998, Jon Olson wrote:

> I think Leigh Pike's description of corporate workplace writing is pretty
> interesting.  Notice how the matters we often link with careful thinking
> ("higher order concerns" of organizational unity, coherence, development)
> aren't a great concern--they're taken care of by formulae or are caught
> during a process of review; coworkers judge a writer's intelligence based
> on what we often call lower order concerns.  I wonder if we in the academy
> push our writing agendas a little too hard and don't always listen to folks
> in the workforce who say they really don't do much writing; what little
> they do is only done a sentence or two at a time.  They just want to make
> their sentences accurate so they don't look stupid.   --Jon, Penn State,
> jeo3@psu.edu
> 
> At 07:07 PM 5/3/98 -0500, you wrote:
> >About a week ago, Jon Olson and I were talking about priorities for
> >teaching writing for the workplace.  He raised the question of whether it
> >would be good to teach grammar first rather than large structures of
> >organization.  I wrote to my daughter Leigh Pike (whom many of you met at
> >NWCA this past fall) and asked her about writing.  She is a systems
> >engineer for a huge bank, and she does all the writing for the group she
> >works with.  Here was her answer to my question (with the "Dear Mom" and
> >the "I love you" at the end removed; those were just for me).
> >
> >I thought that some of her comments would stir some interesting
> >differences of opinion and some good discussion.  
> >
> >Paula Gillespie
> >
> >---------- Forwarded message ----------
> >Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 08:28:46 -0400
> >From: Pike <pike3@hotcoco.infi.net>
> >To: Paula.Gillespie@vms.csd.mu.edu
> >Subject: Re: Question about writing
> >
> >I talked about your question with Allan [her boss's boss] and he and I
> >feel exactly the same. 
> >
> >Where I work there are two groups:  those that notice and care about
> >grammar and those that do not.  People that care about grammar think
> >that if your grammar is poor you sound like an idiot.  However, we take
> >English as a second language into consideration as we rush to judgement.
> >
> >Most people do not write lengthy proposals.  Most writing is short (one
> >page) memos, usually in e-mail form.  People who write well are given
> >all of the assignments to write long documents.  If you can't write, you
> >don't get those assignments more than once.
> >
> >Allan says that if a document is poorly organized he simply won't read
> >beyond the first couple of pages.  I agree.
> >
> >It is my opinion that grammar should come first, because everyone writes
> >memos and e-mails.  Structure and organization are the icing on the
> >cake.  If your grammar is bad, you'll never be given a chance to write a
> >document so lengthy that structure and organization really matter.  
> >Besides, long documents may be written by a team, with different groups
> >submitting chapters, so the organization is predefined.  Finally, long
> >documents are reviewed and walked through by teams, and a paper's
> >structure will be addressed then if it is bad.
> >
> >We have a published Project Management Process (PMP). The longer
> >documents that we write for every project have outlines defined in the
> >PMP.  You do not have to use the PMP format, but if you are lost you can
> >always fall back on the PMP outline.
> >
> >Allan and I agree on one final point:  poor grammar does not limit your
> >career.  If your grammar is poor because you really are dumb, then it is
> >your dumbness that will keep you from advancing, not your grammar.  If
> >you have a lot of other valuable skills, people will overlook your
> >rotten grammar.  Those that care about grammar will talk about your
> >documents behind your back, but that is about the worst of it.  The
> >topic might come up as management discusses your potential for
> >advancement, but it is not likely to be a career-limiting factor.
> >
> >I'll give you two quick examples.  [and here I removed the names she named
> >and substituted names of my friends] Bobbie used to be the Executive Vice
> >President in charge of applications (computer program)  development for
> >the entire Global Retail Bank.  Her boss reported to the CEO.  (She
> >recently made a lateral move so that she doesn't manage my area anymore,
> >but she is in the same EVP rank as before.)  Neal is our current CEO. 
> >Allan mentioned his pet peeve that neither one knows the difference
> >between "I" and "me".  They both say, "Bob told Joe and I..." 
> >
> >A much more serious offense, in my opinion, is that Bobbie never uses
> >capital letters in any of her internal communications (memos in e-mail
> >form).  This drives me absolutely crazy.  I think it is extremely rude. 
> >She has taken a lot of complaints about it, but she brushes them off by
> >saying she is simply too busy to bother with the shift key.  I hate that.
> >
> >I'll be curious to hear if what I described is what you expected.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>